Preston (00:01.222)
Hi there and welcome again to a different episode of Freelance to Founder. My title is Preston Lee with Millo.co and becoming a member of me on the air as all the time is my good pal Clay Mosley from GetDripify.com. Hey, Clay.

Clay (00:12.178)
What’s happening?

Preston (00:14.206)
So what’s happening is we’re catching up as we speak with Travis Boyko who can be on the air with us. Hey Travis. And what’s cool about Travis is you’re on the present, we have been simply speaking earlier than we hit report, possibly six or eight months in the past. And sadly, Clay, due to loopy climate, wasn’t in a position to be part of us on the present. So I’m sort of introducing the 2 of you as we speak, however we’re going to meet up with you Travis and learn the way your online business goes since we final talked, what you’ve discovered.

Travis (00:20.929)
Hey guys.

Preston (00:43.151)
Possibly reply a number of extra questions you may need and simply sort of sort of catch up for a minute. So welcome We’re excited to have you ever

Travis (00:49.241)
Thanks guys for being right here.

Preston (00:51.462)
Nicely, let’s begin off, let’s remind the listeners somewhat bit about your online business. If we might, Travis, inform them what you’re engaged on and possibly paint an image like in the event that they, you understand, what they may acknowledge you from speaking about six or eight months in the past and I actually ought to know that quantity extra solidly, however I don’t. After which, you understand, what you’re sort of engaged on now.

Travis (01:10.849)
Yeah, completely. So, hey everyone, my title is Travis. I’m a graphic designer and author. I’m based mostly out of Ottawa and Canada. So I principally assist corporations, groups, and other people stand out in digital age via quite a lot of visible and communicative mediums. The final episode that I used to be on, I believe it was, we have been sort of discussing like, the way it was potential to make issues work. On the time I used to be working full time at an organization and was performing some freelance stuff on the aspect.

It was actually taking on a whole lot of my time on the free time that I did have and I used to be simply chatting with you simply to determine, hey, like, when could be the correct time to actually do it? What have been a few of these markers which may assist me decide, hey, now, simply go and do it? So yeah, that’s what we have been chatting about. Wait, so that you’re full time now? Yeah, full time now. So I give up my job and I began issues totally in June of this 12 months.

Clay (01:57.099)
Wait, so that you’re full time now?

Good.

Preston (02:01.374)
Congrats.

Clay (02:06.702)
Congratulations.

Preston (02:07.109)
Oh man, I like it. That’s an enormous deal.

Travis (02:09.165)
Thanks guys, yeah, it’s been incredible.

Preston (02:11.438)
Yeah, if you wish to hearken to Travis’s authentic episode, I discovered it right here within the archives. It aired on February ninth of 2023. It’s October proper now of the identical 12 months as we discuss. And the episode is named, Can You Make This Work? And so yeah, you understand, Travis was, as he mentioned, he had this aspect hustle going, he had a full-time job that you simply truly, I imply, you loved it, Travis, if I bear in mind proper. However the query is rather like, ought to I ever, ought to I ever actually contemplate quitting my job, taking the enterprise full-time?

What do I have to know earlier than I try this? What sort of security web would possibly I would like? These sort of questions. And so it’s actually cool to listen to that you simply have been in a position to make that leap. I’d love to listen to how you bought to that time. Like how did you resolve, you understand what, I’m going to take the leap. I’m going to take this full time. What was the catalyst for that?

Travis (02:53.793)
Yeah, truthfully, it’s such a superb query. And I completely agree. Like once we have been chatting, I used to be in my position and I used to be not hating it by any means. It was a whole lot of enjoyable. The those that I used to be working with, my staff was superb. The content material that I used to be engaged on was incredible. However on the identical time, I used to be doing my very own enterprise on the aspect. I had principally been doing it for 4 years on the time, simply sort of carving out some time at any time when I can. And the massive catalyst for me was identical to,

I believe simply listening to you guys, listening to different entrepreneurs sort of do their very own factor and begin their very own companies, I simply sort of reached a degree the place I used to be like, I both take the chance and see if this works out or I don’t and be sort of like plagued with the concept of the what if, if it by no means occurred, I by no means took the hassle to actually commit myself to it. I additionally simply reached a degree the place I used to be taking up much more work.

Preston (03:41.343)
Yeah.

Travis (03:51.589)
And I bodily couldn’t do it with my full-time job. So I reached a degree the place it was like, nicely, if I open up some extra time by leaving my job, it could give me the flexibleness and the chance to actually work with the purchasers that I do have, take extra tasks with them, discover new tasks and new purchasers. So it simply, yeah, simply actually opening myself as much as extra alternative.

Preston (04:13.09)
Yeah, I like that. I, you understand, I heard an extended time in the past and I can’t bear in mind the place I heard this, that I assume it’s statistically proven that you simply are likely to remorse extra issues that you simply didn’t do than issues that you simply did, proper? And for me, that was all the time like once I was, trigger I used to be in your identical footwear, I did the aspect hustle for eight years or one thing. After which the entire time I used to be like, man, ought to I take this full time? Ought to I attempt it? Ought to I do it? The entire time I’m pondering like,

I might have regrets if I didn’t do it greater than if I attempted it and failed. Proper? And so, I assume what recommendation Travis would you might have for people who find themselves possibly a 12 months behind you in progress or no matter? And I say progress, that is provided that you truly need to take your online business full time. You don’t essentially need to, after all that’s sort of the premise of the present, however like let’s say there’s somebody in your footwear, they obtained a aspect hustle they’re actually having fun with, however they’ve obtained a job they possibly get pleasure from. They’re not going to get fired possibly from their job or no matter, and they also have to really make this resolution and say,

You recognize, when ought to I take my enterprise full time if ever? You recognize, what recommendation, what would you say to them?

Travis (05:14.465)
Yeah, it’s an incredible query and I believe even when I used to be simply talking to love my earlier self I believe it’s simply have the boldness and actually try to get out of your consolation zone If you’ll be able to do it, I do know it’s it may be tough for some of us are in numerous financial positions They’ve totally different household lives and issues like that. I used to be ready the place I Had a pleasant backing. I don’t have any like children that I have to help and issues like that So it was somewhat bit simpler of a call

Preston (05:33.883)
Yeah.

Travis (05:42.561)
However for me, an enormous factor that was preserving me from doing it, it was a whole lot of imposter syndrome, a matter of, nicely, might I do that if I actually push myself to it? If I depart my job, will folks assume that I’m a fraud or they assume I gained’t be adequate? And that’s so not true, and that’s precisely the other of what turned out. I believe, if something, the issues that I assumed would come up.

Preston (05:49.994)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (06:09.101)
didn’t and another unexpected issues arose that I might not have considered. So I believe my primary recommendation is simply when you have the fervour and drive to do it and also you’re actually trying to attempt one thing new, 100%, such as you mentioned Preston, I believe I might remorse not doing it.

Clay (06:27.786)
You recognize what’s so humorous is I all the time inform those that worrying works as a result of like 95% of the issues that you simply fear about by no means occur. So in the event you don’t need it to occur, go fear about it.

Travis (06:38.019)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

Preston (06:39.004)
It completely works.

Travis (06:43.51)
Yeah.

Preston (06:46.37)
Yeah, Clay, do you might have any, nicely, I need to come again to Travis in only a minute. You could be pondering, such as you mentioned, there have been some issues that got here up that you simply weren’t anticipating. So I’d prefer to get again into that in only a minute. However Clay, is there something you’d add for somebody who’s in Travis’s place a 12 months in the past, going like, I simply, you understand, ought to I do, ought to I do that, ought to I take the leap? When’s the correct time to try this? What recommendation do you might have for them?

Clay (07:09.422)
Hmm, you understand, that is this actually I imply it’s actually will depend on like that is essentially the most annoying reply it relies upon However actually each particular person’s state of affairs is totally different. You recognize, it’s there’s financials. There’s there’s household. There’s You recognize who if like your partner who you’re married to what do they assume? It’s it’s I imply there’s so many alternative issues my I might say that

Preston (07:18.134)
Yeah

Clay (07:39.422)
All of it comes right down to what does your intestine inform you? That’s what often does it for me, is so long as you possibly can comfortably really feel assured in saying that in the event you went and made the complete leap full time, that you may pay your payments and you’d be okay, go along with your intestine.

As a result of, you understand, I don’t know. This can be a powerful query for me to reply as a result of, and identical factor with you, Preston, as a result of I used to be fired from my job. I had no selection. So I’ve by no means been in that state of affairs the place I had the precise selection of ought to I give up or ought to I not? As a result of fairly truthfully, I don’t know if I might have give up simply pondering again on my private state of affairs as a result of I used to be comfy.

Preston (08:10.255)
Yeah.

Preston (08:21.071)
Yep.

Preston (08:36.918)
Yeah, yeah, Cammy and I’ve talked about this the place my spouse and the place I’m undecided we’d have. Like I thought of it nearly each day as a result of I used to be doing it on the aspect, proper? However yeah, it takes a whole lot of braveness to do what you’ve executed, Travis, which is to simply say I’m going for it, you understand?

Clay (08:43.87)
Yeah, I… Mm-hmm. Yeah, identical.

Clay (08:54.13)
It does, yeah.

Travis (08:59.795)
It’s a bit nerve-racking, however I positively admire it.

Preston (09:04.071)
One thing although I bear in mind is like whether or not you’re compelled into it or whether or not you make that call, I really feel just like the adrenaline kicks in a lot that truly helps you. Like some days I want I had somewhat extra adrenaline in my enterprise, in the way in which I work in my enterprise. I’m fairly like comfy proper now, you understand? And issues are going easily and like, yeah, we attempt new issues and we construct new income streams, however I’m not practically as hungry as I used to be once I first began full time as a result of I used to be like…

I’ve one thing to show. Like I’m six years in, six and a half years in now, and it’s like, yeah, I’m good. I don’t need to show something to anybody now. I’m in enterprise, I’ve stayed in enterprise, I’ll keep in enterprise. However there’s like that, and it’s sort of enjoyable, proper? It’s sort of a thrill somewhat bit. Yeah.

Clay (09:30.026)
Mm-hmm.

Clay (09:46.53)
That could be a enjoyable stage, that may be a enjoyable stage. Additionally essentially the most nerve wracking.

Preston (09:50.374)
I used to be gonna say possibly it’s extra enjoyable in hindsight, proper? It’s like a type of belongings you look again on later fondly, however within the second you’re like, man, I’d actually prefer to get some sleep and never fear about the place my subsequent meal’s coming from or no matter, however.

Travis (10:03.509)
Yeah, I imply, for me, it was positively nerve wracking. And I believe proper if you sort of resolve to make that call, it’s actually combat or flight coming from like a company atmosphere the place you might have your sort of set hours, you might have your wage, you might have your days that look related in sure methods. They usually’re structured in sure methods the place I give up my job, got here again to start out my very own factor.

the world was totally open, my schedule was totally open, it’s totally as much as me to start out transferring. It hits you fairly fast, however I believe for me at the least, the joy and the chance that may very well be had there, I believe sort of overcame that somewhat bit. It made it a bit simpler and it wasn’t as terrifying.

Preston (10:32.516)
Yeah.

Preston (10:47.272)
Yeah.

Preston (10:51.13)
Yeah, I agree. And I, I like, I used to be far more excited to rise up for work throughout that interval than I believe I ever have been in my life, together with now, though I like what I do, um, you understand, and I like getting up and dealing alone enterprise, however there’s simply one thing about that. Possibly one 12 months interval when it’s identical to all or nothing, proper? That is the second that I’m both going to make it or I’m going to fall on my face and, uh, and also you kick it into the subsequent gear and also you, and also you both make it occur otherwise you don’t. And I believe.

And possibly that is kind of survivor’s bias somewhat bit, proper? However I really feel like most individuals make it work. Should you take, such as you mentioned, Clay, belief your intestine sufficient and also you’ve crunched the numbers sufficient and it makes logical and intestine sense, such as you take the leap and most of the people, it really works out.

Clay (11:35.274)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I believe, you understand, I want any individual had advised me, like, as a result of us as human beings, what we do, the way in which we’re motivated simply normally, is that I believe the vast majority of us are motivated to keep away from a unfavorable state of affairs, versus motivated by pursuing a constructive state of affairs, like a reward, proper? So I believe that’s why, like,

Preston (12:01.146)
Yeah. Yep.

Clay (12:04.534)
each you and I have been each motivated, as a result of I don’t find out about you, my again was up in opposition to the wall. And so I used to be making an attempt to keep away from a fair worse state of affairs. And once more, I didn’t know the place my subsequent meal was coming from. And in order that’s sort of truly the mentality. For these of you, I believe, who need to make that voluntary selection of leaving a full-time gig and going…

Preston (12:11.012)
Yeah. Yep.

Clay (12:33.854)
freelancer. I believe, and that is tremendous powerful to do, however I believe engaged on that thoughts body of that, like everyone thinks of, oh yeah, like what if I had like a seven determine company? What would that do? Like, sure, that’s motivating. However I believe concurrently, I believe we’d like to consider a unfavorable state of affairs we’re making an attempt to keep away from. And so even to this day, like proper now, like,

These days, one factor that I attempt to put in my head is, so my daughter’s title is Georgia. I all the time assume, what if any individual had kidnapped Georgia and mentioned, it’s a must to go make 10 gross sales this month, in any other case you’ll not get her again. And so I might don’t have any downside going and discover 10 gross sales and I’ll determine it out with zero judgment from.

Preston (13:21.742)
Yeah, you’d don’t have any downside.

Clay (13:30.95)
whoever proper? Like I, the judgment in my thoughts goes out the door. Like what is going to folks assume? You recognize, as a result of that’s a, that’s an actual legitimate factor. It’s like persons are afraid to make gross sales and do gross sales calls and DMs or no matter as a result of they’re afraid of what folks would assume or like concern of rejection. However I’m like, but when, if your loved ones members kidnap and that was the one manner you will get that particular person again, like I’m assure you, you’re not going to actually care about judgment. So.

Preston (13:36.816)
Yep, yep.

Clay (13:58.15)
It’s far more motivating in my view. I believe it’s like a 70-30, 70 to keep away from 30 to pursue one thing constructive.

Preston (14:06.59)
Hmm, yeah, actually fascinating to consider it that manner and let that concern inspire you, proper? So Travis, I wanna hear from you. You mentioned earlier within the present, there have been some issues that as you made the change, you thought have been gonna occur that didn’t ever occur and a few issues that you simply by no means even thought of that did occur. What are possibly a few of the unexpected, if somebody’s listening they usually’re going, yeah, I’d like to do what Travis did, however I actually simply don’t know what to anticipate. What are some issues that you simply didn’t count on that did occur?

Clay (14:11.437)
Yep.

Travis (14:23.801)
Thanks for watching!

Travis (14:37.505)
Yeah, positively. And I believe for me and again to what we have been simply speaking about being a motivator, like I believe for me, like cash is a giant motivator and having the ability to have that common paycheck, the common earnings. And that was one of many issues that was actually holding me again in opposition to doing this. And once I jumped into issues, I in a short time realized like, oh, in the event you put your time and energy into it, there shall be a capability to realize that.

Preston (14:48.337)
Yeah.

Preston (15:05.534)
Hmm.

Travis (15:06.465)
So it’s not as a lot of a stress. The issues that I didn’t count on, truthfully, it may be actually, actually boring, however I believe simply due to the character of my enterprise, like I’m a designer and I’m a author, I don’t actually have a lot overhead. I do every thing utterly digitally, all distant, nothing that I actually, actually need to be too involved about, no like storefronts or something like that. The issues that I didn’t count on have been simply the executive work. Quite a lot of just like the financial side,

Preston (15:32.658)
Hmm.

Travis (15:35.521)
ensuring every thing’s so as, I’m preserving monitor of every thing, ensuring that I’m being attentive to the hours that I’m working and following up with purchasers extra rigorously and issues like that. All of the stuff within the backend that I wouldn’t have historically executed, particularly as a full-time particular person, as a result of it’s simply a part of the job, you’re simply doing it as a part of the character of your work. These issues I didn’t actually count on and particularly earlier than once I was freelancing on the aspect, there have been extra like…

smaller tasks so somebody would come to me for a pair graphics or a pair issues right here and there the place I wouldn’t actually need to put a lot consumer interfacing in the place I now if I’m trying to do greater tasks I’m trying to get extra work trying to meet new purchasers trying to do all that was the extra surprising factor it appears apparent however I believe the quantity of labor that it takes and the time that it takes was simply I simply didn’t count on it

Preston (16:31.118)
Yeah, that’s actually fascinating. I, you understand, individuals who have listened to the present loads are possibly going to be bugged that I maintain bringing this up, however there’s this guide, the E-Delusion Revisited. Should you haven’t learn it, it’s a must to learn it. And it talks about service suppliers or craftsmen or makers. I don’t bear in mind what he calls them. It’s been a number of years since I’ve learn it, however principally people who find themselves proficient at one thing like what you’re proficient at Travis, which is like graphic design, writing, inventive work. Proper. I bear in mind he provides the instance of a baker, for instance, and he, and he’s, he’s like the perfect baker. He works at a bakery.

And so he’s like, I’m going to start out a bakery and trigger everybody’s telling me how scrumptious my, you understand, my baked items are or no matter. And he begins a bakery and all the sudden he’s not a baker. He’s a enterprise proprietor and now he has to handle funds and he has to handle clients and he has to pay lease and he has like all these administrative duties. And he’s like, I’ve no time to bake. Uh, as a result of now I’ve to run a enterprise. And I believe that’s what a whole lot of us don’t see, which is like.

significantly in the event you’re working in-house within the factor that you simply need to go into enterprise as graphic design or no matter it may be, you don’t see all of the stuff that folks within the enterprise are doing that you simply’re not doing. Nicely, whilst you’re doing graphic design, another person within the constructing is doing the accounting and another person within the constructing is doing the HR work and another person within the constructing is doing the advertising. And like there’s all these items that another person is doing that when you go by yourself, it’s on you. You’ve obtained to do it. Or a enterprise can’t operate with out a few of these primary.

wants being met.

Travis (17:59.373)
Yeah, completely. And that’s, I bear in mind our earlier dialog, that was one of many issues that I discussed and that was an enormous cause why I used to be sort of buzzing and hawing about making a call was like, I’m not an accountant. I’ve little or no data of how cash works within the enterprise sense. Like I perceive how one can get purchasers and I perceive how one can cost for like billable hours and issues like that. However past that, like taxes are terrifying, ensuring.

Preston (18:18.457)
Yeah.

Travis (18:29.129)
all of your submitting is completed in a sure manner, ensuring you might have all of your seats, placing all of it so as, monitoring every thing you do. Like that for me was an enormous sense of tension. However I imply, in a sure sense, and possibly higher for folk listening too, you sort of determine it out as you go alongside the way in which. I believe I had an inclination to have a look at the entire image as like, I’ve to determine.

Preston (18:40.667)
Yeah.

Preston (18:48.282)
Yeah. Yep.

Travis (18:54.645)
all my taxes I’ve to determine, all the executive stuff, the minute I principally begin my enterprise the place it’s a reasonably iterative course of and also you study as you go, so possibly simply not taking a look at it as this large insurmountable wall.

Clay (19:06.182)
Yeah. You recognize what’s good in regards to the starting is that you simply learn to do sort of every thing so that you simply perceive every thing. That doesn’t imply it’s a must to do every thing eternally. It’s like you might have in all probability executed sufficient accounting and financial stuff the place you’re identical to, okay, I perceive this. Now let me simply go rent a CPA or an accountant to simply do that going ahead. As a result of I believe it’s good to love perceive it.

Preston (19:30.66)
Yeah.

Clay (19:36.278)
however such as you simply don’t have to do it, proper?

Preston (19:38.554)
Yep. At the least to have a primary understanding of how every bit of your online business works. Proper. And, and till you might have tons of of workers, like I really feel like at the least it’s best to have, it’s best to have a reasonably good grasp on, on what every of your. Like if, if I, for some cause had all of my teammates depart the corporate as we speak, it could be terrible and I might abruptly not have any time in addition to work time. Trigger I might simply need to do every thing they’re doing, however I believe I might do most of what they’ve executed.

Clay (19:42.591)
Yeah.

Preston (20:08.41)
Proper? And that’s to not say they haven’t contributed uniquely to the staff and to the processes, as a result of they clearly carry their very own expertise and skills to the method, however just like the fundamentals of what has to get executed for our firm to maintain working and earning profits, I perceive. Proper? And so I believe that’s essential when your online business is a sure measurement, that you simply perceive how these issues work. And you then’re proper. I imply, I went via a number of iterations of how I dealt with my bookkeeping and my taxes.

till I lastly employed this firm known as Collective, which I can hyperlink to. And now they simply deal with all of it for me. However I went via like spreadsheets after which I did like a QuickBooks factor after which I did a service known as Bench and like I simply tried all these various things. And also you’re proper, Travis, you’re not gonna get it proper out the gate. Issues are gonna change. And that’s, in my thoughts, that’s sort of the enjoyable of enterprise is like, okay, right here’s what we’ve been doing and I’d like to do this totally different factor.

and see if it’s extra profitable and if it grows my firm and frees up my time and helps me develop the enterprise. I simply assume that’s all actually thrilling. That’s sort of the enjoyable of it versus like a dead-end desk job the place it’s like, nicely, nothing ever adjustments right here. You recognize.

Travis (21:15.393)
Yeah, I positively agree. And I believe that’s one of many issues that’s been tremendous rewarding in regards to the precise enterprise possession side of this complete factor is the truth that you might have that sort of full management, which is simply not accessible in different settings. With all these instruments and accounting softwares and all this stuff which might be accessible on-line now, it may be overwhelming, however there’s some kind of freedom in it the place you possibly can see that you may be versatile. You’ll be able to check the issues.

that be just right for you. They may not work for different folks. They may be platforms or issues that some folks argue in opposition to, but when it really works for you and you want the way it capabilities and it makes your processes extra streamlined, then hey, that’s incredible. And at the least you might have the selection to try this.

Preston (21:59.706)
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. That’s what I believe that’s what I like essentially the most is such as you don’t need to go ask anybody in the event you can change it. You don’t have to love have a advice for one thing superior solely to have it fall on deaf ears or purple tape or no matter. Like yeah, you might have the flexibleness to regulate your personal processes and your personal path in your online business. I wanna discuss to Travis. I do know you mentioned you had a few questions now. You’ve been in enterprise for your self full time for somewhat bit right here now. What questions have arisen that you simply assume

You recognize, we’re possibly a few years forward of you, a number of years forward of you on this strategy of being self-employed. What questions might we attempt to reply for you as we speak earlier than we wrap up this name?

Travis (22:38.145)
Yeah, yeah, for certain. I imply, I’ve like two giant questions. I do know you guys discuss scaling very often. So if we now have time, possibly we are able to discuss that after. However one of many issues I did need to ask about is sort of like, I assume, the other of burnout. So like, I’ve all the time been sort of like vehemently in opposition to this complete like,

Preston (22:46.728)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (23:03.041)
hustle tradition, like, rise and grind, and like, working each single waking hour. Like, if that’s your factor, like, you do you. No matter works for you. However I’ve personally, I’ve felt the impression of being burnt out and being overworked, and I do know that it may be simply as unhealthy as like, not doing something. However now that I’ve like, began my enterprise, I’ve common work and purchasers coming in, and I’ve lastly gotten over the preliminary like, terror and the leap of religion of truly doing it.

Preston (23:04.482)
Yeah.

Travis (23:29.901)
How do you get previous a side of like comfortability and making certain that you simply’re persevering with to push ahead with out sort of reaching that state of exhaustion?

Preston (23:41.394)
Yeah, that is such a superb query. I’d have an interest to listen to what you say, Clay, however like, that pendulum has swung forwards and backwards so many instances for me. However my motivation has by no means been prefer to develop up tens of millions and tens of millions of {dollars} value of income. I simply, I needed the approach to life that comes with being self-employed. I like cash, don’t get me mistaken. However yeah, I’m sort of with you. I, that kind of.

Clay (23:43.323)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (24:09.29)
And I love and respect him, however that kind of Gary Vee, hustle in any respect prices tradition, that’s powerful for me. I don’t resonate with that. And so yeah, I fall on this too generally the place it’s like, oh, income was down this month and I didn’t even discover as a result of I used to be off hanging out with my household or no matter. And for me, it’s nearly figuring out what’s most essential after which additionally giving significance or weight to the issues that…

that deserve it. So clearly income in my firm actually issues. However does an additional $1,000 this month matter that a lot? Nicely, at this stage of my enterprise, possibly not. It wouldn’t make or break my enterprise, whereas within the first few months it might have. And so for me, it’s about preserving issues in perspective. Is it value me working an additional 10 hours this week to make an additional $1,000? I don’t know.

If which means I’ve to overlook a faculty play and a church occasion and a service factor and a no matter, an evening out with my associates or my household, I don’t know if that basically is value it for me. So for me, it’s about preserving it in perspective. After which there are some months the place it’s like, nicely, if I don’t work actually arduous this month, we’re going to be in bother. I’m going to have a tough time paying my folks. I’m going to have a tough time making a revenue. And so, okay, this month I’m going to buckle down and I’m going to overlook some issues with my household or I’m going to overlook some issues with my associates.

However once more, it comes again to that flexibility you’ve talked about Travis, which is like, generally I’m gonna give far more time to my household or no matter else. Typically I’m gonna give far more time to my enterprise. And we’ve talked about this on the present too, Clay, which is like, there’s no such factor as work-life stability if you’re self-employed. It’s simply sort of like work and life intertwinement, proper? And like integration, yeah, that’s proper. What else would you add, man?

Clay (25:55.659)
Integration.

Clay (26:00.694)
Yeah, that’s a extremely good query. As somebody who has been on either side, once I first was a freelancer, I used to be positively in that hustle grind tradition. And that’s simply because I didn’t have children. I didn’t have any hobbies. What else am I speculated to do? So I simply labored my ass off and I labored like 80 plus hour weeks. And that was simply not as a result of I needed to, I simply, I appreciated it.

Travis (26:21.319)
Hehehe

Clay (26:31.558)
Now that I’ve a daughter and only for transparency, a wedding that I truly like being in. I used to be married earlier than first marriage. It’s totally different now. And once more, I’m with Preston. I like cash. So my factor is, however what does that cash do for me?

Preston (27:01.361)
Yeah.

Clay (27:01.702)
Proper. It’s not about like how a lot cash I’ve within the financial institution. It’s like, what’s that cash truly achieved for me? To me, that’s the actual the actual motivation behind that’s like cash is a superficial reply, in my view. It’s like, what’s that going to do for you? Is that going to mean you can.

uh, do some issues with your loved ones that you wouldn’t have been in a position to do, you understand, trigger I, I like, I grew up tremendous grime poor. Um, I can rely on manner lower than one hand, what number of household holidays we took as a child. Like we didn’t take household holidays. Um, in reality, I can rely on one finger what number of instances we truly went out to eat like at a restaurant my complete childhood. Um, so

That’s for me, that’s sort of the motivation is like, I wanna have the ability to present the experiences for my children that I used to be not in a position to do, you understand? However so far as like tactical issues, as a result of Travis, you’re motivated by cash as you talked about earlier than, I’m too. One factor for me, there’s a pair issues so far as techniques right here.

I get actually burnt out once I’m doing a whole lot of issues for an extended time and I don’t make a sale.

As a result of it identical to messes with my thoughts. And I believe, what the hell am I doing? Like, why am I doing what I’m doing for thus lengthy? It’s not working as a result of I haven’t made a sale but. Proper? So with a purpose to deter that, I’ve a mentality of 1 sale a day. Not saying that I do make a sale a day, that’s simply my efforts each single day. So what does that imply? It means

Clay (29:02.69)
I be sure earlier than I do anything, each single work day, is I make 5 pitches to love alternatives, people who find themselves on my hit record, proper? Like folks I’ve prospected with or networked with or no matter. After which I additionally do 5 observe ups. So individuals who I’ve already pitched to, however I’m simply doing a observe up. I do that each single day. As a result of I’ve this mentality of.

I have to make a sale, like one sale a day. In order that ensures that I’ve some kind of gross sales exercise each single day in order that I don’t have like these large gross sales slumps. As a result of gross sales as a enterprise proprietor is precedence, proper? Like that’s tremendous precedence. Yeah, for certain.

Preston (29:50.834)
Nicely, in the event you don’t have gross sales, I say this all of the time. Should you’re not earning profits, you’re not in enterprise, proper? You’ve an incredible hobby, however in the event you’re not earning profits, you’re not in enterprise.

Clay (30:00.782)
Yeah, I imply you could like to do like graphic design, however yeah, once more, on the finish of the day, in the event you don’t have gross sales, like what’s the purpose? So I believe that’s one factor. One other factor that basically modified my enterprise was the, I believe we talked about it earlier than on a, I believe we talked about it earlier than on a podcast. Hold on one second. I’m going to pause for a second.

Clay (30:26.322)
Sorry, you’ll need to edit that out in submit. So I believe we talked about this on one episode, the guide Traction. Have you ever learn that guide, Travis?

Preston (30:28.082)
You needed to, you needed to sneeze.

Travis (30:39.424)
No, I’ve not

Clay (30:41.094)
It’s by Gino Wickman. Preston can hyperlink it.

Preston (30:47.866)
Yeah, we’ll hyperlink it for certain. You’ve introduced this guide up a few instances, Clay.

Clay (30:51.058)
Yeah, so sort of the entire premise of that is folks monitor their enterprise success, I assume, by income, proper? How a lot income I obtained coming in. The issue with that’s that they try this after it’s executed. So what I imply is like we’re nearly on the finish of October. I’m going to go

Did I meet my objective? No. Nicely, shit. Like, it’s too late for October as a result of it’s already executed, it’s up to now. Are you able to do something about it about October? No, as a result of it’s already executed. So, what traction talks about is having what they name scorecard. And the scorecard is only a record of like actions that have an effect on issues like income, proper?

So it’s nearly, it’s like, did you do 5 gross sales pitches? Did you do 5 follow-ups? Did you submit on social media? Did you write that e mail as we speak? It’s the exercise that generates the outcome. So that you monitor the actions and that provides you a pulse of your online business in any given snapshot in actual time. Proper? The outcomes observe, yeah.

Preston (32:16.494)
After which the outcomes observe, is that what you’re saying? That is sort of like what we talked about with Zach final episode, which is like, there are some issues that you may management and you’ll assure, and there are some issues you possibly can’t management. And it’s a must to deal with the issues that you may management, each along with your consumer work and in your personal enterprise. I like fascinated with it that manner. And I might additionally suggest, Travis, as you’re speaking about this un-hustle tradition, how do I?

Clay (32:27.18)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (32:42.574)
How do I discover the correct stability between hustling and rising my enterprise and being glad? There’s this guide by Paul Jarvis known as Firm of One and he talks loads about simply being glad with not rising, simply being okay with that and never feeling responsible that your online business isn’t rising and significantly not rising tremendous quick. However to determine what’s essential to you and if income is an important then yeah after all you then hustle for the income.

Clay (33:02.143)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (33:10.118)
But when free time, if flexibility, if achievement in your work, if these issues are extra essential, you then hustle till these issues are met after which it’s okay to not really feel like it’s a must to be hustling all of the time. So I believe for me, that’s how you discover the glad medium is you say like, why am I actually doing this? If I’m actually doing this to develop into a millionaire, nicely then yeah, I obtained to hustle till my enterprise is raking in that sort of cash. If I’m actually motivated…

to do that as a result of I would like that free time, I would like additional time with folks I care about, or I would like additional time for hobbies or no matter, you then hustle till you attain that and you discover that good stability. And I believe you possibly can sort of sense it. It’s like, oh, I’ve in all probability taken too many days off, proper? Or I’ve reduce too many days brief and gone to play pickleball or no matter it’s. And you’ll sort of sense when that will get out of whack. And I believe the objective is to maintain that lined up as a result of it’s also possible to sense when

Travis (33:56.217)
Thanks for watching!

Preston (34:07.166)
You’ve been placing in too many hours at work and also you’re beginning to really feel burned out or ignoring individuals who you care about. And so for me, it’s all about identical to that’s that pendulum is gonna swing. How are you going to decrease the depth of that swing? Proper. Um, to remain within the center as a lot as you possibly can. Yeah.

Clay (34:21.882)
Mm-hmm. That’s why I like traction, proper? Simply maintaining along with your actions as a result of it’s a controllable factor. The sails will are available waves, however it would are available constantly. However in the event you do all of your actions that you simply’re supposed to trace, then it must be okay. It ought to assist with burnout.

Travis (34:23.053)
Yeah.

Travis (34:41.617)
Yeah, I positively agree and I just like the analogy of the pendulum and ensuring that it’s not swinging so closely and clay with what you’re saying by way of ensuring you might have sort of these sort of like low depth duties that You’ll be able to simply do often And they won’t seem to be it’s a complete lot on the day However over your entire span of the month, they actually do add up after which that manner you’re not simply sort of

Preston (34:41.662)
What are you listening to over there, Travis? Yeah.

Travis (35:06.925)
burning your self out, making an attempt to blow via it multi function go, making an attempt to catch up for missed time. As a result of I positively seen that. I believe one of many struggles of being a enterprise proprietor and doing issues by yourself phrases is that you’re holding your self wholly accountable. And there are occasions the place…

Preston (35:08.486)
Mm-mm.

Travis (35:24.373)
you may not really feel like you might have the flexibility to place in a pair extra hours, so that you would possibly simply take the time off, however you then’re like, oh, truly, now I would like to actually ramp that up the subsequent day. So it’s swinging manner, manner too closely. So yeah, I positively agree. I believe that’s one thing that I might positively put in place, um, just a bit bit extra construction, possibly ensuring that there’s some kind of accountability, however not a lot accountability that’s unreasonable or not even attaining the objective that I would like.

Clay (35:42.2)
Yeah.

Preston (35:47.831)
Yeah.

Clay (35:50.082)
There’s a-

Preston (35:50.306)
Yeah, yeah, that’s proper. Trigger you don’t need to, you don’t need to construct a enterprise or arrange a state of affairs to the place you’re hustling all of the time and don’t have any time for this different stuff that you simply care a lot about, proper? The entire cause you bought into enterprise for your self within the first place, if you wish to work lengthy hours, you possibly can go discover a job the place they may work you so long as you need to be labored, proper? Um, and so, yeah, I believe, I believe for me, it’s simply all about that stability. Clay, did you might have extra?

Clay (36:13.206)
Yeah, there’s one other guide I might extremely suggest. It’s by the fellows from Basecamp. Rework, yeah. Distant. They’ve a few distant. After which it’s one thing known as like work socks or one thing like work doesn’t need to suck or one thing like that. Yeah. So I’m particularly speaking about rework.

Preston (36:20.21)
Oh, rework. Is that so good? And their different what’s their different one? It’s on my shelf. I’m gonna look

Preston (36:28.478)
It’s not a mishap.

Preston (36:33.518)
Oh yeah, work doesn’t, one thing like that. Yeah, work doesn’t need to suck or.

Travis (36:37.112)
Hmm.

Clay (36:43.182)
They’re a giant shtick of what they discuss within the guide is creating these arbitrary income targets. So it’s like folks say, oh yeah, I need to have a seven determine enterprise. Okay, the place did that quantity come from? Is it simply because different folks say it or no matter? Like, or they’ll say, oh yeah, I need to have, you understand, make $10 million a 12 months. Okay, why? Like, the place did that quantity come from?

Preston (36:52.774)
Yeah.

Clay (37:10.654)
So their large factor is like, so long as you’re rising each single 12 months over 12 months, like what does it matter? It doesn’t. Like, you don’t need to, you don’t need to set this objective, this very finite quantity as a result of in the event you go from like, so for instance, my first 12 months as a freelancer, I made, my objective was $100,000. I made $97,000.

Preston (37:18.318)
Yeah.

Clay (37:39.826)
I used to be not very glad as a result of I missed it by three grand, however first 12 months as a contract, that’s fairly good. After which my second 12 months, I don’t bear in mind what my actual income was, however my second 12 months, I believe I did like $340,000 in income. I bear in mind my third 12 months although as a result of I had a objective of, okay, I’m going to make $500,000.

Dude, we did like $488,000. However the level right here is that, oh, after which the fourth 12 months, we needed to make one million. I believe we technically made $998,000. I do know, like, so my level right here is that I miss the mark each single 12 months, quote unquote, based on these arbitrary numbers I put aside. However in the event you have a look at the truth, I grew by over…

Preston (38:23.038)
Clay, you’re such a failure. Yeah.

Travis (38:24.811)
Hahaha

Clay (38:37.426)
what, 300% from 12 months one to 12 months two, nearly 100% from 12 months two to 12 months three, and 100% from 12 months three to 12 months 4. Like, folks would freaking kill for these numbers. So like setting these arbitrary numbers, it’s simply, it messes along with your thoughts. And that’s how burnout occurs, proper?

Preston (38:49.594)
Yeah.

Preston (39:01.074)
So only for context actually fast, the 2 books are known as Rework and it doesn’t need to be loopy at work. And each extremely really useful, I’ve learn them each, they’re so good, I’ve learn Rework a few instances. Yeah, like the quilt for it doesn’t need to be loopy at work, it has a giant purple X with phrases like this behind it. 80 hour weeks, packed schedules, tremendous busy, limitless conferences, overflowing inbox, unrealistic deadlines, can’t sleep.

Sunday afternoon emails, it’s like, no, all these items that we consider this hustle tradition has taught us we now have to do, we don’t have to try this. And, um, these guys are like dwelling it. They’re constructing their enterprise base camp on these rules they usually’re doing very well. Proper. And so it’s actually a few inspiring books, extremely, extremely suggest. I believe that’s 4 books we’ve given you now to learn Travis and listeners, however, um, positively some good ones. Yeah. What else is in your thoughts, Travis? Anything?

Travis (39:48.001)
We’ve obtained some gentle studying to do.

Travis (39:53.109)
Yeah, no, I imply, truthfully, that was a superb transition as a result of I believe on the subject of development and scaling and issues like that, I do know you guys discuss scaling rather a lot. I listened to some of the earlier episodes when of us had questions on scaling. I believe mine may be somewhat bit extra nuanced with regards to scaling, nevertheless it’s actually understanding possibly indicators of when you might have the ability to scale. So like, for instance,

when would you understand that you’ll be able to rent like a subcontractor? Is there like a sure financial benchmark? Must you develop extremely sluggish if that’s the one manner you possibly can develop and plan and set expectations to take action? So like say if I solely had 10 hours of labor a month to present to a subcontractor, is that useful simply because I’m at the least rising at some tempo?

Preston (40:26.799)
Yeah.

Preston (40:42.814)
Hmm, that is so humorous as a result of we simply talked to Zach about this, for listeners final week for us an hour in the past, we have been speaking to Zach about this and yeah, he had the identical query. He’s like, what comes first? Do I get the massive purchasers to fund hiring folks or do I rent folks to dump my workload in order that I can then discover the massive purchasers, proper? And so very, very related query. What we advised Zach and possibly we’ll, I imply, we’ll tailor the query somewhat bit understanding your state of affairs, however.

Travis (40:46.506)
Hahaha.

Clay (40:48.676)
Hmm.

Travis (41:04.793)
Precisely.

Preston (41:12.55)
However in my thoughts, to reply your query about like, nicely, ought to I simply do 10 hours every week simply because I can? Sure, I believe so. As a result of what you’re doing is every thing has a possibility value, proper? And so these 10 hours, sure, you might do the work or you might pay somebody to do the work after which you might exit and discover two extra purchasers in these 10 hours or no matter, you understand, no matter it equates to in your online business. And so each time you tackle work, whether or not it’s administrative work or deliverable work,

billable work, no matter you need to name it, every thing you say sure to is a chance value in your online business, proper? The place you’re doing 99% of all of the issues in your online business or possibly 100% at this level, every thing is a chance value. And so my opinion is sure, in the event you can afford to rent somebody even for 10 hours every week or 10 hours a month, if it’s one thing that might unencumber time for you to earn more money or develop the enterprise in different methods to realize, once more,

coming again to this concept of prefer it’s not all about cash proper cash’s not the top all be all but when it could aid you obtain the targets that you simply need to in your online business no matter these are then sure 100 it’s value that funding.

Preston (42:25.85)
Mic drop, I assume. Clay, do you might have something so as to add on that?

Travis (42:26.937)
Hahaha

Clay (42:29.733)
Yeah, one second

Preston (42:32.646)
One thing loopy is occurring, Klaze. I don’t know, does that resonate with you, Travis? What do you assume? Yeah.

Clay (42:35.637)
Okay.

Travis (42:37.325)
It’s the subsequent storm. Um, yeah, no, I positively agree. Like I believe when, like even the idea of development, like for me, talking personally, and I’m certain different folks would in all probability really feel the identical manner as somebody nonetheless comparatively new, like I’m solely on this for 5 months. Like the concept of development and bringing on another person is like, I’m simply making an attempt to maintain myself afloat and pay my payments. However I believe…

Clay (42:38.983)
Yeah.

Travis (43:06.681)
there’s gotta be some kind of mentality shift by way of understanding that sort of alternative, the accessible alternative the place I might put in some extra time or give another person the time to do it and create like sort of exponential alternative, proper? I believe it’s nonetheless wrapping my head round that as a result of I’m simply so like course of and operation pushed that I’ve not thought-about what which may appear like. And possibly there’s gotta be some kind of

understanding on my finish even from a financial perspective of like what that what that appears like

Preston (43:39.13)
Yeah, and we talked about this with Zach too, which is the good factor is in the event you begin with contractors or subcontractors, you possibly can all the time ease off, proper? Should you pay somebody a pair thousand bucks this month and also you’re like, whoa, that was not value that funding, then subsequent month you say, hey, sorry, we gotta push pause on this for a minute or no matter. Like versus hiring an worker, which it’s like, I’m hiring you for $60,000 a 12 months and.

Clay (43:39.86)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (44:06.086)
We’re obligated to one another, and it’s this complete large deal. You’ll be able to simply rent freelancers to assist the place it truly makes an impression in your online business. And you then could be very selective about, OK, I believe if I spend $1,000 right here or $500 there, that’s going to really unencumber my time or generate extra income or no matter and assist me obtain the targets that I’ve in my enterprise.

Clay (44:26.314)
Okay, so I’ve some ideas. Lastly. Sorry, I had a distraction. I had a distraction over right here. Okay, so I’m going to say one thing. I don’t assume I’ve ever mentioned on a podcast. I believe sluggish, wholesome development is precedence first. So right here’s what I imply by that. I believe folks get so caught up in, oh, when can I rent any individual so I can tackle extra purchasers?

Preston (44:28.134)
Sure, go.

Travis (44:30.681)
Hahaha

Preston (44:45.624)
I agree.

Clay (44:56.15)
I believe the mentality wants to alter first. I believe the mentality must be, if I, so Travis, in the event you had the mentality of I’m solely going to get 100 purchasers, proper? Not 100 energetic purchasers. I imply such as you solely can tackle 100 purchasers whether or not they depart you or not.

Simply 100, in order quickly because the one centesimal particular person purchases from you, that’s the place you possibly can now not take purchasers. How would your service and your work change? So folks could be like, oh, I’m gonna be sure my service is high notch, proper, as a result of I have to ensure that I can maintain all 100 of these purchasers. To me, that’s the mentality that

must occur first is act like you’re solely in a position to tackle 100 purchasers complete.

Clay (46:01.956)
After which refine that course of, get your work, your high quality up tremendous, tremendous high notch. After which at that time you possibly can have a look at hiring any individual.

Travis (46:15.453)
Yeah, I believe that’s a extremely good level as a result of I believe, prefer it’s humorous you talked about that, as a result of one in all my subsequent questions was like, how would I put together my purchasers for onboarding one other contractor or one thing like that, and doubtlessly sacrifice high quality? As a result of that’s one thing that I’m, I maintain myself to a really high customary, and I ensure that what I ship is like me 100%, and there’s like no sacrificing that.

Clay (46:29.634)
Mm-hmm.

Clay (46:42.662)
Mm-hmm.

Travis (46:44.813)
And if I’m making an attempt to hurry to get somebody within the door only for the sake of development, and I’m doubtlessly sacrificing that high quality, I’ve utterly misplaced the plot then.

Clay (46:53.214)
Yep. I want any individual had advised me this once I first began my company as a result of we grew tremendous, tremendous quick. I imply, tremendous quick, however our high quality sacrificed. We fastened it, however I want we had not grown as quick as we did. Yeah.

Preston (46:54.566)
Yeah.

Preston (47:06.802)
It’s suffered.

Preston (47:13.742)
I’ve yeah, I’ve had the identical expertise the place you rent as a result of it does unencumber your time, however you don’t, however, however you then, you possibly haven’t employed nicely sufficient or, otherwise you haven’t taught nicely sufficient to the place your high quality stays the place it must be. So then it’s a must to sort of go backwards and both let folks go discover new folks or it’s a must to retrain, which is tough. And so yeah, it turns into actually sophisticated. I’m with Clay. I, I’m, I’m a really sluggish development sort of man. I imply, I’ve been doing.

Clay (47:27.67)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (47:41.55)
my enterprise both on the aspect or full time since 2008. And we now have 4 folks, relying on the time of 12 months, 4 to 6 folks on the staff. I imply, we’re not a giant firm and I’m kind of intentional about that, proper? I don’t wanna spend most of my working hours managing a staff of fifty folks, in order that’s a part of it. However yeah, I desire to develop. It’s so humorous, these tech startups, they’ll discuss development by way of how many individuals they’ve employed, proper? And it’s like, nicely, no.

What in the event you employed fewer folks and made more cash? That’s an actual profitable enterprise in my thoughts. We’ve elevated income yearly, at the least since I took it full time, and we now have not elevated personnel. So one thing’s actually working there. Yeah, yeah, that’s proper. Does that assist, Travis?

Clay (48:15.606)
Yep.

Travis (48:25.145)
Hm.

Clay (48:25.389)
That’s scaling. Yep, that’s scaling.

Travis (48:30.005)
That’s actually fascinating. Yeah, 100%. I believe it’s coming from my perspective, if you hear the phrases like development and scaling, you robotically assume that the dollar quantity must be proportional to the personnel quantity, proper? When that’s not all the time the case, I believe it’s such as you have been saying, having the ability to do it in a manner that’s sensible and really works for you, but in addition meets your values.

Preston (48:47.03)
Mm, yeah.

Travis (48:57.149)
That can be scaling too. I imply, clearly the profit is extra financially with too, but when it doesn’t meet up with every thing else, then what’s the purpose?

Preston (49:06.362)
Yeah, yeah, I believe it looks as if every thing we’re speaking about as we speak comes full circle to that concept of like, what do you actually care about? What’s actually essential in your online business? Cash after all is essential in any enterprise, proper? However in addition to cash, what else do you care about? Proper? What sort of enterprise do you need to be working? Do you need to be managing a staff of 10 or 20 or 30 or 50 or 100 folks? Or do you need to be managing a staff of two or three folks? Or do you simply need to work for your self? Prefer it simply relies upon a lot. Once more, coming again to Clay’s reply, it relies upon, proper? And that’s arduous. However um…

Travis (49:14.062)
Mm-hmm.

Preston (49:35.454)
nevertheless it simply will depend on what you actually need out of your online business. And I believe, you understand, getting the readability on what you actually need out of working for your self is a extremely large deal. And a few folks skip that step they usually let different folks resolve what success appears like of their enterprise. And if you let different folks try this, you then succumb to this hustle tradition or this manner too laid again tradition or no matter it may be. And that may be actually harmful. And so I believe, yeah, I believe…

You’re within the good place within the age of your online business to now say like, and it seems like you have already got an concept, Travis, of what your imaginative and prescient is on your life and your online business. However you will get a lot readability on that. And I believe that’ll simply drive the selections you make as you progress ahead.

Travis (50:20.117)
Yeah, completely. And I believe coming again to the, even the entire concept of the podcast of like the place you’re in freelance to founder, like I’ve very clearly made the choice that I need to develop my enterprise, however how that appears, I believe that’s one thing I by no means even actually thought-about beforehand. It’s identical to, you both have one or you might have the opposite. So stepping into the nuance, yeah, essential.

Preston (50:39.67)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicely, it’s been a whole lot of enjoyable chatting with you, catching up with you, listening to about your online business. You’ve had some actually distinctive questions as we speak. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on the present. Travis, will you remind folks another time the place they’ll discover you in the event that they need to work with you or community with you or no matter?

Travis (50:55.893)
Yeah, completely. So my enterprise is Travis Boyko Artistic. You’ll find me at travisboyko.com or in the event you wanna shoot me an e mail, it’s simply travis at travisboyko.com.

Preston (51:06.046)
Excellent. And if anybody remains to be listening an hour later into this dialog, in the event you’re having as a lot enjoyable as we now have, I’ve mentioned a number of instances, Travis’s website, his portfolio website, his website, is precisely what you have to be doing as a freelancer to really convert website guests into paying purchasers. He’s simply executed, not solely is he a proficient designer, which is after all essential, however he’s pondering the correct manner about calls to motion, about how one can attain out, about showcasing work, about speaking about himself.

about speaking about his purchasers. He’s simply doing all of it actually, very well. So take a look at his website. We’ll make sure you hyperlink to that within the present notes as nicely, however travisboyko.com. Travis, thanks once more, man, for coming again on the present. It’s been an actual pleasure. And Clay Mosley from GitDripify. I’ve been Preston from milo.co, and we are going to all discuss to you later. See ya.

Clay (51:51.954)
See ya!

Preston (51:57.158)
Alright, let’s hang around for only a minute as issues hopefully add. Uh, possibly.

Travis (52:01.849)
Superior.

Preston (52:04.99)
Please don’t lose that dialog.

Travis (52:06.885)
Hahaha